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Hi everyone My fire troupe got a limo gifted to us and we would like to trick it out with some kind of flame effects( sequenced fire bursts of some sort)A welded platform on top of the limo with hand rails and on the four corners some kind of flame cannons. So how do you go about getting the big gas bursts is it some kind of regulator valve? hooked up to propane? I could use a little guidence on this one thanks for your time Will.
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Mon, October 8, 2007 - 3:45 PMIn very basic terms, you start with a propane tank, BBQ size is good. You plumb that through a 1/4 turn ball valve into a pressure vessel. Another propane tank will work well. Exiting the second tank you have a large open pipe with a solenoid valve. The second tank functions as an accumulator. The solenoid valve releases the pressure in the second tank into a pipe that vents to the air. At the end of that pipe is an ignition source. A pilot light if you will. When the solenoid is energized the gas is released at a rapid rate. The pilot light ignites the fuel and you have a flame effect. Note: all the valves, hoses and fittings must be rated for propane. The valves should have WOG on them. Water Oil Gas. The hose must be propane rated as well. Any pipe fittings should be schedule 80. Do not use copper tubing and solder. Threaded pipe works best and it is less costly. -
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 7:00 AMthreaded copper tubing is okay though right? I have a machine shop here and we threaded it and used pipe tape for a good seal. -
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 8:50 AMAre you certain it is copper and not brass? If it is copper it must be refridgeration seamless tubing. This is usually soldered. Check the pressure rating. It must be equal to schedule 80. Soldering is NOT acceptable. Solder, even silver solder will melt below the temp of a propane flame. If you are using copper refridgeration tubing it must be brazed. This is all assuming you with for it to pass inspection on the Playa. -
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 9:44 AMoh duh, yea it is brass. I had playa dust in my brain still. -
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 9:55 AM--Keep in mind that brass pipe can crack. I'd suggest you switch to either steel pipe (aka 'black iron pipe') or go with flare fittings and copper tubing. If there's a situation where you'll get excessive vibration, as in an art car, take precautions. -
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 10:19 AMHey thanks for the posts I will have to start hitting up my plumber for some of his gas flex hose.
So on another note you mention inspections on the playa? Could some one direct me that way.
Feel free to post any other suggetions or ideas you have .
Will
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 11:07 AMThat was bar none the best,simplest ,description of a propane fireball I have ever seen.
Thank you.
Terry -
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 11:40 AMFlex gas hose like you see attached to your hot water heater is not rated for 350 pounds of pressure. You need to spend the money and buy propane hose. When you register a mutant vehicle there is a section of the app which asks if you have flame effects. Checking yes will open another series of questions. When the app is sent in to BM the Flame Effects vehicles get routed to me. I read the apps to see if I have any questions. If all looks good the app gets sent on to the DMV for approval. If I have any questions or concerns I will contact you for an explanation. On the Playa at your DMV inspection myself or another person on the FE team at DMV will look at your work. If all is well, a Flame Effects Laminate will be issued. -
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 1:05 PMjack,
do you want to elabrate on the valve system???
I have heard some people use 110v valves cause they open faster vs 12v valves... true??
another comment I heard was a check valve some where between the tank and the value??
required?
does anybody have numbers as to size of supply tank and how long you can expect it to last?? shot count??
thanks... I am also going to do some flame effect in the future so I am doing some preliminary research...
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 1:51 PMI used a standard bbq size can for an eight -10 hr evening on a large pilot. But that was without bursts. We didnt get to the burst stage yet. This next year we will. -
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 2:35 PMoh ya.... the other thing I saw alot of was the use of a complete seprate system that was the pilot lite...
a weed burner with a seprate take to feed it that stays lit all the time... you lit this with a pizo sparker which was built into the weed burner... ant this lit the main exit effect.
comments jack?? is a seprate system required for the pilot lite?? or some other technology for the pilot acceptable??
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Tue, October 9, 2007 - 10:50 PMWhile you have more power to work with in a 110v system, that is not always practical in the field. It would require a generator or line current. 12v will work fine if the ID of the vavle is large enough. A check valve is not required. The flammability range of propane is rather narrow. The biggest problem is using the propane at a rapid rate. The tank will freeze, causing pressure drop and the size of the effect will decrease. As far as a pilot light, you can tap off of your main propane tank and run a small (1/4") line to the exit point of your flame effect. With a small valve you can control the size of the pilot light. You could also do this with a small propane cylinder. At the end of the copper line, wrap it with STAINLESS steel wool. This will assist in keeping the wind and the discharge from you effect from blowing out the pilot light. Simple and effective. The 1/4 turn ball valve does nothing more that turn off the flow of propane from the source to the accumulator. -
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 6:00 AMJack The flex hose I was talking about is yellow and comes on a spool it is used here in colorado for all of your gas lines in your house and for heating systems, it is not the flex line for stoves or water heaters . If it is to spec. I would like to use it instead of hard pipe (as it is lighter and flexiable) for some of the applications. If you are not sure of it I will get the manufacturers spec. sheets and post here. it may come in handy for someone else. We havent started this project yet I wanted to find out as much as I could before hand so as not to build and then rebuild
Will. -
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Wed, October 10, 2007 - 9:50 AMAsk your supplier of the hose what the pressure rating is. Generally homes use very low pressure, 5-15 psi. There is no need to go to the expense of high pressure hose where it is not called for. I have heard of a new hose that is on the market that is low cost and able to withstand the higher pressures. Perhaps that is what you have. -
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 11:42 AMBTW, besides being propane approved, the hose must be rated to 300 psi.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Flame effects how to ?
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 12:13 PMthe propane pipe that are used underground and in the houses around here are after the regulator which is located on the tank.... so its all low pressure....
the last thing you want is a blown out propane line that catches on fire...
www.youtube.com/watch
or this
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Tacoma Explosion........
Thu, October 11, 2007 - 1:11 PMWell,you just can't buy entertainment like that............
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 12:03 PMI am looking for a realy big ball of fire the accumulator you say can be a propane tank? Where do i find one with a secondary port to plumb in a 2" valve? Also at what pressure do you recomend charging the accumulator? I have been working with tank pressures on a 100 lb tank and i can get a realy nice torch. But i am looking for a climbing ball of fire. Any help would be greatly appriciated. -
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 3:28 PM -
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 7:00 PMThat diagram is nice and effectively answers the previous question. However, it shows the pilot light being fed from the accumulator. This means that the pressure in the accumulator is being constantly drained and that the pilot will go out when the accumulator is empty.
I suppose this could be seen as a safety feature (if you wander off the pressurized tank of explody gas empties safely and the pilot light goes out) but I'd rather run the pilot of the main gas tank in order to be sure that it would stay lit. -
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 1:59 PM
I have seen others with a seprate 5gal tank that goes to the pilot light... a complete seprate circuit... in fact it was just a propane tourch size tank... with a weed burner on the end....
you ARE connected to the main tank the way the diagram is shown....
and the pressure in the main tank will not drop until your out of liquid propane..
here is why the accumulator is needed.
lets say you have a LPG tank thats 7/8 full of LIQUID propane... 1/8 is gas at the top.
if you ran that straight to a exit pipe the gas would burn off quickly and you would have a small puff....
by supplying a completely empty container to "absorb" large quanitys of gas then you have a bigger supply of gas for the puff.
the generation of the gas is automatic... as the pressure of the liquid goes down "you use up gas" the Liquid propane turns in to a gas building the pressure back up (the tank gets real cold during this process) and quits when the pressures equal....
also this might be the time to mention about the solenoid... it can be a 12v one... but people have said the 120v one is quicker and you you get a better effect if you can open the valve faster....
my .04cents worth... -
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 4:12 PMI think I see the issue. I had seen the ball valve between the LPG tank and the accumulator as being closed, except when charging the accumulator. What you are describing is leaving that ball valve open all the time thus supplying gas to the pilot and keeping the accumulator fully charged. Close that valve only when it's time to go home.
That's why we're looking at the same picture and seeing different things.
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 3:42 PMI think that the idea with this system is that the regulator acts as a buffer (capacitance if you will) and is able to keep the pilot burning during the brief period of time when the pressure is drained from the expansion tank. Also, the small feed line that replenishes the expansion tank should allow for enough back pressure to keep the pilot lit. I know the DSC guys use this system and I am not sure if they have even had problems with the flame going out. Maybe that is a good question for them. They should be at the Crucible this weekend.
Captain Chuck
Inspiratum 2008 -
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 4:13 PMOh, I probably should have replied here. See my previous post.
Thanks for sharing and that diagram is big help. -
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Re: Flame effects how to ?
Sat, September 13, 2008 - 9:31 AMHaha! I just managed to remove the valve (the old kind) from a propane tank. I am printing out the diagram and making a parts list!
I should have it just in time for a regional in October.
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